Fwd: THE ATLANTIC: Turn Down the Streetlights
good article dispelling the myth that lighting dimishes crime.
Mario
Turn Down the Streetlights
What Seattle’s dark streets tell us about crime September 01, 2024 Updated
at 6:07 p.m. ET on September 1, 2024 Years ago, I called the local electric
and streetlight utility, Seattle City Light, to ask why the block around
the corner was lit up like a sleep-deprivation torture cell. Then as now,
seven high-powered LED lights, plus two on facing corners, blazed away—more
than twice the usual allotment in this hilltop neighborhood of close-packed
bungalows less than three miles from downtown
Read in The Atlantic: https://apple.news/AqptmLvgkT8qokFsNESDwEQ
Except that it is not true according to many studies:
From Google AI...
A review of 21 studies found a 14% reduction in crime in areas with street lighting.
*
A study in New York City found a 36% reduction in nighttime outdoor crime after adding more streetlights.
*
A study in Oxfordshire and west Berkshire found a reduction in thefts from cars at night
And in Europe in the XIXth century, the number of crimes dropped when public lighting began to light the streets.....
But of course these lights should be properly designed.
From: Mario Motta drmariomotta@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2025 18:43
To: GAAC Listserve astro@lists.gaac.us
Subject: [Astro] Fwd: THE ATLANTIC: Turn Down the Streetlights
good article dispelling the myth that lighting dimishes crime.
Mario
Turn Down the Streetlights
What Seattle’s dark streets tell us about crime September 01, 2024 Updated at 6:07 p.m. ET on September 1, 2024 Years ago, I called the local electric and streetlight utility, Seattle City Light, to ask why the block around the corner was lit up like a sleep-deprivation torture cell. Then as now, seven high-powered LED lights, plus two on facing corners, blazed away—more than twice the usual allotment in this hilltop neighborhood of close-packed bungalows less than three miles from downtown
Read in The Atlantic: https://apple.news/AqptmLvgkT8qokFsNESDwEQ
Well, I will counter that. That vast majority of well verified academic studies show no statistical difference. Nearly all such positive studies done by lighting companies are biased and poorly performed. England has done the best studies show no difference. Studies from LA and Chicago also if anything lighting makes crime worse
Mario
On Feb 20, 2025, at 2:33 PM, Yves Simon belgarchi@gmail.com wrote:
Except that it is not true according to many studies:
From Google AI...
A review of 21 studies found a 14% reduction in crime in areas with street lighting.
A study in New York City found a 36% reduction in nighttime outdoor crime after adding more streetlights.
A study in Oxfordshire and west Berkshire found a reduction in thefts from cars at night
And in Europe in the XIXth century, the number of crimes dropped when public lighting began to light the streets.....
But of course these lights should be properly designed.
From: Mario Motta drmariomotta@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2025 18:43
To: GAAC Listserve astro@lists.gaac.us
Subject: [Astro] Fwd: THE ATLANTIC: Turn Down the Streetlights
good article dispelling the myth that lighting dimishes crime.
Mario
Turn Down the Streetlights
What Seattle’s dark streets tell us about crime September 01, 2024 Updated at 6:07 p.m. ET on September 1, 2024 Years ago, I called the local electric and streetlight utility, Seattle City Light, to ask why the block around the corner was lit up like a sleep-deprivation torture cell. Then as now, seven high-powered LED lights, plus two on facing corners, blazed away—more than twice the usual allotment in this hilltop neighborhood of close-packed bungalows less than three miles from downtown
Read in The Atlantic: https://apple.news/AqptmLvgkT8qokFsNESDwEQ
Deciding whether or not something is true based on what you get from AI is
a bit unproductive. Let's compare the studies that were done on both sides
and see what we get.
On Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 2:40 PM Mario Motta drmariomotta@gmail.com wrote:
Well, I will counter that. That vast majority of well verified academic
studies show no statistical difference. Nearly all such positive studies
done by lighting companies are biased and poorly performed. England has
done the best studies show no difference. Studies from LA and Chicago also
if anything lighting makes crime worse
Mario
On Feb 20, 2025, at 2:33 PM, Yves Simon belgarchi@gmail.com wrote:
Except that it is not true according to many studies:
From Google AI...
- A review of 21 studies found a 14% reduction in crime in areas with
street lighting.
- A study in New York City found a 36% reduction in nighttime outdoor
crime after adding more streetlights.
- A study in Oxfordshire and west Berkshire found a reduction in
thefts from cars at night
And in Europe in the XIXth century, the number of crimes dropped when
public lighting began to light the streets.....
But of course these lights should be properly designed.
From: Mario Motta drmariomotta@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2025 18:43
To: GAAC Listserve astro@lists.gaac.us
Subject: [Astro] Fwd: THE ATLANTIC: Turn Down the Streetlights
good article dispelling the myth that lighting dimishes crime.
Mario
Turn Down the Streetlights
What Seattle’s dark streets tell us about crime September 01, 2024 Updated
at 6:07 p.m. ET on September 1, 2024 Years ago, I called the local electric
and streetlight utility, Seattle City Light, to ask why the block around
the corner was lit up like a sleep-deprivation torture cell. Then as now,
seven high-powered LED lights, plus two on facing corners, blazed away—more
than twice the usual allotment in this hilltop neighborhood of close-packed
bungalows less than three miles from downtown
Read in The Atlantic: https://apple.news/AqptmLvgkT8qokFsNESDwEQ
astro@lists.gaac.us
https://gaac.us
http://www.facebook.com/GAACpage
I don’t ever use AI in any research review.
(Maybe because I’m an old guy …:)
I can provide studies I trust. My criteria is unbiased, done in scientifically accurate and rigorous study, provided by a university is a plus. Ida website has a list of over 5000 LP studies listed so you don’t have to pay for PubMed searches. It’s free, go to Ida website and search for crime, safety , and lighting
Mario
On Feb 20, 2025, at 2:59 PM, Michael Deneen <michael.patrick.deneen@gmail.com> wrote:
Deciding whether or not something is true based on what you get from AI is a bit unproductive. Let's compare the studies that were done on both sides and see what we get.
On Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 2:40 PM Mario Motta <drmariomotta@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, I will counter that. That vast majority of well verified academic studies show no statistical difference. Nearly all such positive studies done by lighting companies are biased and poorly performed. England has done the best studies show no difference. Studies from LA and Chicago also if anything lighting makes crime worse
Mario
On Feb 20, 2025, at 2:33 PM, Yves Simon <belgarchi@gmail.com> wrote:
Except that it is not true according to many studies:
From Google AI...
- A review of 21 studies found a 14% reduction in crime in areas with street lighting.
- A study in New York City found a 36% reduction in nighttime outdoor crime after adding more streetlights.
- A study in Oxfordshire and west Berkshire found a reduction in thefts from cars at night
And in Europe in the XIXth century, the number of crimes dropped when public lighting began to light the streets.....
But of course these lights should be properly designed.
From: Mario Motta <drmariomotta@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2025 18:43
To: GAAC Listserve <astro@lists.gaac.us>
Subject: [Astro] Fwd: THE ATLANTIC: Turn Down the Streetlightsgood article dispelling the myth that lighting dimishes crime.
Mario
Turn Down the Streetlights
What Seattle’s dark streets tell us about crime September 01, 2024 Updated at 6:07 p.m. ET on September 1, 2024 Years ago, I called the local electric and streetlight utility, Seattle City Light, to ask why the block around the corner was lit up like a sleep-deprivation torture cell. Then as now, seven high-powered LED lights, plus two on facing corners, blazed away—more than twice the usual allotment in this hilltop neighborhood of close-packed bungalows less than three miles from downtownRead in The Atlantic: https://apple.news/AqptmLvgkT8qokFsNESDwEQ
astro@lists.gaac.us
https://gaac.us
http://www.facebook.com/GAACpage
There are literally hundreds of studies with opposite conclusions on this subject.....
Oh boy, and I thought that Geologists are not serious people..... (-:)
If I find some that seems to be statistically serious, I will give you the references.....
Y
From: Michael Deneen michael.patrick.deneen@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2025 19:59
To: Mario Motta drmariomotta@gmail.com
Cc: Simon Yves belgarchi@gmail.com; GAAC Listserve astro@lists.gaac.us
Subject: Re: [Astro] Re: Fwd: THE ATLANTIC: Turn Down the Streetlights
Deciding whether or not something is true based on what you get from AI is a bit unproductive. Let's compare the studies that were done on both sides and see what we get.
On Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 2:40 PM Mario Motta <drmariomotta@gmail.commailto:drmariomotta@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, I will counter that. That vast majority of well verified academic studies show no statistical difference. Nearly all such positive studies done by lighting companies are biased and poorly performed. England has done the best studies show no difference. Studies from LA and Chicago also if anything lighting makes crime worse
Mario
On Feb 20, 2025, at 2:33 PM, Yves Simon <belgarchi@gmail.commailto:belgarchi@gmail.com> wrote:
Except that it is not true according to many studies:
From Google AI...
A review of 21 studies found a 14% reduction in crime in areas with street lighting.
*
A study in New York City found a 36% reduction in nighttime outdoor crime after adding more streetlights.
*
A study in Oxfordshire and west Berkshire found a reduction in thefts from cars at night
And in Europe in the XIXth century, the number of crimes dropped when public lighting began to light the streets.....
But of course these lights should be properly designed.
From: Mario Motta <drmariomotta@gmail.commailto:drmariomotta@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2025 18:43
To: GAAC Listserve <astro@lists.gaac.usmailto:astro@lists.gaac.us>
Subject: [Astro] Fwd: THE ATLANTIC: Turn Down the Streetlights
good article dispelling the myth that lighting dimishes crime.
Mario
Turn Down the Streetlights
What Seattle’s dark streets tell us about crime September 01, 2024 Updated at 6:07 p.m. ET on September 1, 2024 Years ago, I called the local electric and streetlight utility, Seattle City Light, to ask why the block around the corner was lit up like a sleep-deprivation torture cell. Then as now, seven high-powered LED lights, plus two on facing corners, blazed away—more than twice the usual allotment in this hilltop neighborhood of close-packed bungalows less than three miles from downtown
Read in The Atlantic: https://apple.news/AqptmLvgkT8qokFsNESDwEQ
astro@lists.gaac.usmailto:astro@lists.gaac.us
https://gaac.us
http://www.facebook.com/GAACpage
Oh, that's a big mistake... I know (still active, I am retired) Geoscientists that are finding recently that they can do scientific research way faster using A.I......
My own limited tests are finding that ChatGPT is superior to DeepSeek,
Anyway, I bet you that among robust studies, there are opposite conclusions...
The problem, as in all 'human' sciences, is that there are too many intertwined parameters, and it is near-impossible to isolate them.
More later.
Y
From: Mario Motta drmariomotta@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2025 20:16
To: Deneen Michael michael.patrick.deneen@gmail.com
Cc: Simon Yves belgarchi@gmail.com; GAAC Listserve astro@lists.gaac.us
Subject: Re: [Astro] Re: Fwd: THE ATLANTIC: Turn Down the Streetlights
I don’t ever use AI in any research review.
(Maybe because I’m an old guy …:)
I can provide studies I trust. My criteria is unbiased, done in scientifically accurate and rigorous study, provided by a university is a plus. Ida website has a list of over 5000 LP studies listed so you don’t have to pay for PubMed searches. It’s free, go to Ida website and search for crime, safety , and lighting
Mario
On Feb 20, 2025, at 2:59 PM, Michael Deneen michael.patrick.deneen@gmail.com wrote:
Deciding whether or not something is true based on what you get from AI is a bit unproductive. Let's compare the studies that were done on both sides and see what we get.
On Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 2:40 PM Mario Motta <drmariomotta@gmail.commailto:drmariomotta@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, I will counter that. That vast majority of well verified academic studies show no statistical difference. Nearly all such positive studies done by lighting companies are biased and poorly performed. England has done the best studies show no difference. Studies from LA and Chicago also if anything lighting makes crime worse
Mario
On Feb 20, 2025, at 2:33 PM, Yves Simon <belgarchi@gmail.commailto:belgarchi@gmail.com> wrote:
Except that it is not true according to many studies:
From Google AI...
A review of 21 studies found a 14% reduction in crime in areas with street lighting.
*
A study in New York City found a 36% reduction in nighttime outdoor crime after adding more streetlights.
*
A study in Oxfordshire and west Berkshire found a reduction in thefts from cars at night
And in Europe in the XIXth century, the number of crimes dropped when public lighting began to light the streets.....
But of course these lights should be properly designed.
From: Mario Motta <drmariomotta@gmail.commailto:drmariomotta@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2025 18:43
To: GAAC Listserve <astro@lists.gaac.usmailto:astro@lists.gaac.us>
Subject: [Astro] Fwd: THE ATLANTIC: Turn Down the Streetlights
good article dispelling the myth that lighting dimishes crime.
Mario
Turn Down the Streetlights
What Seattle’s dark streets tell us about crime September 01, 2024 Updated at 6:07 p.m. ET on September 1, 2024 Years ago, I called the local electric and streetlight utility, Seattle City Light, to ask why the block around the corner was lit up like a sleep-deprivation torture cell. Then as now, seven high-powered LED lights, plus two on facing corners, blazed away—more than twice the usual allotment in this hilltop neighborhood of close-packed bungalows less than three miles from downtown
Read in The Atlantic: https://apple.news/AqptmLvgkT8qokFsNESDwEQ
astro@lists.gaac.usmailto:astro@lists.gaac.us
https://gaac.us
http://www.facebook.com/GAACpage
Yves, I am not saying you are "wrong" (you may be right), only that the
peer reviewed studies I have seen come to opposite conclusions. On
reviewing published studies, most show no statistical differences between
more light or less light on streets.
As far as AI... I think it's dangerous to just depend on that, helpful yes,
but AI is only as good as the info that trained it, and there are many
examples of ludicrous AI conclusions (and also of helpful AI conclusions).
Just not the definitive answer yet.
I am not home so don't have access to my larger file base, but.. here are a
few legit peer review studies in PDF (not newspapers publications like what
I sent earlier , and what I actually rely on), and also a snip from PPT
talks that list other studies as well if interested
Mario
On Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 4:25 PM Yves Simon belgarchi@gmail.com wrote:
There are literally hundreds of studies with opposite conclusions on this
subject.....
Oh boy, and I thought that Geologists are not serious people..... (-:)
If I find some that seems to be statistically serious, I will give you the
references.....
Y
From: Michael Deneen michael.patrick.deneen@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2025 19:59
To: Mario Motta drmariomotta@gmail.com
Cc: Simon Yves belgarchi@gmail.com; GAAC Listserve <
astro@lists.gaac.us>
Subject: Re: [Astro] Re: Fwd: THE ATLANTIC: Turn Down the Streetlights
Deciding whether or not something is true based on what you get from AI is
a bit unproductive. Let's compare the studies that were done on both sides
and see what we get.
On Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 2:40 PM Mario Motta drmariomotta@gmail.com wrote:
Well, I will counter that. That vast majority of well verified academic
studies show no statistical difference. Nearly all such positive studies
done by lighting companies are biased and poorly performed. England has
done the best studies show no difference. Studies from LA and Chicago also
if anything lighting makes crime worse
Mario
On Feb 20, 2025, at 2:33 PM, Yves Simon belgarchi@gmail.com wrote:
Except that it is not true according to many studies:
From Google AI...
- A review of 21 studies found a 14% reduction in crime in areas with
street lighting.
- A study in New York City found a 36% reduction in nighttime outdoor
crime after adding more streetlights.
- A study in Oxfordshire and west Berkshire found a reduction in
thefts from cars at night
And in Europe in the XIXth century, the number of crimes dropped when
public lighting began to light the streets.....
But of course these lights should be properly designed.
From: Mario Motta drmariomotta@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2025 18:43
To: GAAC Listserve astro@lists.gaac.us
Subject: [Astro] Fwd: THE ATLANTIC: Turn Down the Streetlights
good article dispelling the myth that lighting dimishes crime.
Mario
Turn Down the Streetlights
What Seattle’s dark streets tell us about crime September 01, 2024 Updated
at 6:07 p.m. ET on September 1, 2024 Years ago, I called the local electric
and streetlight utility, Seattle City Light, to ask why the block around
the corner was lit up like a sleep-deprivation torture cell. Then as now,
seven high-powered LED lights, plus two on facing corners, blazed away—more
than twice the usual allotment in this hilltop neighborhood of close-packed
bungalows less than three miles from downtown
Read in The Atlantic: https://apple.news/AqptmLvgkT8qokFsNESDwEQ
astro@lists.gaac.us
https://gaac.us
http://www.facebook.com/GAACpage